Comments on: Joining In on the Kinship Conversation http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/ Things I'll talk about with anyone Mon, 01 Mar 2010 15:32:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Susan http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-8229 Susan Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:04:12 +0000 http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/#comment-8229 <p>Wow -- I wrote this really long post and then I hit a wrong key. Man, that's a bummer.</p> <p>Well, perhaps I will write the long post again sometime when it is not 2:30 am.</p> <p>Suffice to say that I'm somewhat sympathetic to anti-marriage arguments as well as anti-excited-about-marriage expressions, even though I'm in the pro-marriage camp for myself and also in the pro-gay-marriage-movement-focus camp politically.</p> <p>On the other hand, I'm not at all sympathetic to "Why did you invite me to your wedding when you know how I feel about marriage" arguments.</p> <p>To me, this ranks up right there with other PC annoyances of our day such as, "Why did you invite me when you knew it was the Second Day of Sukkot", "Why did you invite me when you knew there would be peanuts" and "Why did you invite me when you didn't ask everyone else to be scent-free".</p> <p>There are two answers to all of the above questions: (1) You were invited because someone loved you and wanted you there and (2) The world is not maximized for your benefit.</p> <p>Tell the truth or beg off, but to take offense at something that was intended to be an honor is ... well ...</p> <p>Also, expecting someone to insert any kind of individualized note into 200 wedding invitations is simply unrealistic.</p> <p>And what would it say? "I know this puts you in an awkward spot but I hope you'll come"? "I know how you feel about weddings so if you don't come that's okay but I just wanted you to know you were invited"? Or best of all, just a note, "I would have invited you to my wedding but I knew it would put you in an awkward spot, so I didn't. Just wanted to let you know that you were specifically not invited."</p> <p>I have to say that being infertile, I take every baby announcement as a personal attack. And I would prefer it if all of my friends would stop having babies in recognition of and in solidarity with my pain. I often wonder why the world doesn't stop turning and why we continue to wake up each day and how anyone can act like life is good given my personal experience.</p> <p>But I know I'm being nuts. And I think expecting that any of your friends would anticipate that you would be annoyed or offended or awkwardized by a wedding invitation is equally understandable but equally nuts.</p> Wow — I wrote this really long post and then I hit a wrong key. Man, that’s a bummer.

Well, perhaps I will write the long post again sometime when it is not 2:30 am.

Suffice to say that I’m somewhat sympathetic to anti-marriage arguments as well as anti-excited-about-marriage expressions, even though I’m in the pro-marriage camp for myself and also in the pro-gay-marriage-movement-focus camp politically.

On the other hand, I’m not at all sympathetic to “Why did you invite me to your wedding when you know how I feel about marriage” arguments.

To me, this ranks up right there with other PC annoyances of our day such as, “Why did you invite me when you knew it was the Second Day of Sukkot”, “Why did you invite me when you knew there would be peanuts” and “Why did you invite me when you didn’t ask everyone else to be scent-free”.

There are two answers to all of the above questions: (1) You were invited because someone loved you and wanted you there and (2) The world is not maximized for your benefit.

Tell the truth or beg off, but to take offense at something that was intended to be an honor is … well …

Also, expecting someone to insert any kind of individualized note into 200 wedding invitations is simply unrealistic.

And what would it say? “I know this puts you in an awkward spot but I hope you’ll come”? “I know how you feel about weddings so if you don’t come that’s okay but I just wanted you to know you were invited”? Or best of all, just a note, “I would have invited you to my wedding but I knew it would put you in an awkward spot, so I didn’t. Just wanted to let you know that you were specifically not invited.”

I have to say that being infertile, I take every baby announcement as a personal attack. And I would prefer it if all of my friends would stop having babies in recognition of and in solidarity with my pain. I often wonder why the world doesn’t stop turning and why we continue to wake up each day and how anyone can act like life is good given my personal experience.

But I know I’m being nuts. And I think expecting that any of your friends would anticipate that you would be annoyed or offended or awkwardized by a wedding invitation is equally understandable but equally nuts.

]]> By: k http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-7647 k Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:07:59 +0000 http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/#comment-7647 <p>david, thanks for your truely thoughtful reply to my post. Your link didn't show up on our sight so this was only recently brought to my attention, and I'd like to think a little more before responding in kind. As for the timing of my post, yes perhaps Sue and Michael's "save the date" email was the prompt, or maybe it was one of the SIX other wedding invitations I received this year. Each invitation I received felt like one more reason to be silent until I realized there was never going to be a good time to say what I think. I'm not asking anyone to defend their decisions, but I am asking my friends to at least acknowledge the awkward spot in which they place me when they send out that invitation (and expect me to spend hundreds of dollars on airfare, clothing, and presents). It's not as though no one had any idea how I felt about marriage and weddings, and yet everyone expects me to treat their wedding as some kind of exception. I can't read minds and I don't know what complicated thought process led to this or that decision to get married. All I see are a great many people reaching the same conclusion that they must get married, and frankly I have trouble understanding that when I can't get married. I would very much like to hear people's reasons because as David said, maybe it would help me to see something that I'm missing.</p> david,
thanks for your truely thoughtful reply to my post. Your link didn’t show up on our sight so this was only recently brought to my attention, and I’d like to think a little more before responding in kind. As for the timing of my post, yes perhaps Sue and Michael’s “save the date” email was the prompt, or maybe it was one of the SIX other wedding invitations I received this year. Each invitation I received felt like one more reason to be silent until I realized there was never going to be a good time to say what I think. I’m not asking anyone to defend their decisions, but I am asking my friends to at least acknowledge the awkward spot in which they place me when they send out that invitation (and expect me to spend hundreds of dollars on airfare, clothing, and presents). It’s not as though no one had any idea how I felt about marriage and weddings, and yet everyone expects me to treat their wedding as some kind of exception. I can’t read minds and I don’t know what complicated thought process led to this or that decision to get married. All I see are a great many people reaching the same conclusion that they must get married, and frankly I have trouble understanding that when I can’t get married. I would very much like to hear people’s reasons because as David said, maybe it would help me to see something that I’m missing.

]]> By: Christie http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-7600 Christie Wed, 11 Jul 2007 02:12:16 +0000 http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/#comment-7600 <p>Since my thoughts are shorter, guess I'll just post them here :)</p> <p>It's been cool to read people's thoughts on marriage, even though I, like Sue, was concerned for them about the proximity of the announcement to their own save the date message.</p> <p>After various friends' weddings, my brother's big Scottish, Catholic wedding where I was best man, and my sister's big formal lesbian New Jersey wedding, my own thoughts about marriage have tended more and more to the "shrug" variety. I don't really care to get married, because it doesn't mean that much to me. I'm not the biggest fan of formality, I have way more than enough stuff, and I feel totally committed to partnership on its own. But if I had a partner who wanted to get married, or if it was gonna save me $10,000 a year in taxes, who knows.</p> <p>I feel very committed to the idea of gay marriage for one of the factors that you referred to, David. It's just not fair. As one of my gay friends once said "I want to CHOOSE to not get married, like all of my straight friends!" :) I don't feel shrug about that. Same-sex couples should absolutely be treated exactly the same as opposite-sex couples.</p> <p>Anyway, I discussions around marriage are pretty interesting. It's a weird historical and social phenomenon. I'm glad K posted her thoughts mostly because it stimulated people to talk, when I feel like most of my friends had previously just be sort of "shrug"ing along with me.</p> Since my thoughts are shorter, guess I’ll just post them here :)

It’s been cool to read people’s thoughts on marriage, even though I, like Sue, was concerned for them about the proximity of the announcement to their own save the date message.

After various friends’ weddings, my brother’s big Scottish, Catholic wedding where I was best man, and my sister’s big formal lesbian New Jersey wedding, my own thoughts about marriage have tended more and more to the “shrug” variety. I don’t really care to get married, because it doesn’t mean that much to me. I’m not the biggest fan of formality, I have way more than enough stuff, and I feel totally committed to partnership on its own. But if I had a partner who wanted to get married, or if it was gonna save me $10,000 a year in taxes, who knows.

I feel very committed to the idea of gay marriage for one of the factors that you referred to, David. It’s just not fair. As one of my gay friends once said “I want to CHOOSE to not get married, like all of my straight friends!” :) I don’t feel shrug about that. Same-sex couples should absolutely be treated exactly the same as opposite-sex couples.

Anyway, I discussions around marriage are pretty interesting. It’s a weird historical and social phenomenon. I’m glad K posted her thoughts mostly because it stimulated people to talk, when I feel like most of my friends had previously just be sort of “shrug”ing along with me.

]]> By: Donna http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-7594 Donna Tue, 10 Jul 2007 01:18:15 +0000 http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/#comment-7594 <p>Woah! We have to talk. I'll be there in a couple weeks. Your very married mother.</p> Woah! We have to talk. I’ll be there in a couple weeks. Your very married mother.

]]> By: dot unplanned » More Marriage http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-7592 dot unplanned » More Marriage Mon, 09 Jul 2007 23:02:19 +0000 http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/#comment-7592 <p>[...] David Ernst also offered some thoughts on his own blog that address what Carl sketched. Sue commented that she felt like David’s observations offered her more room to respond than Amy & Kathleen’s initial post did. [...]</p> [...] David Ernst also offered some thoughts on his own blog that address what Carl sketched. Sue commented that she felt like David’s observations offered her more room to respond than Amy & Kathleen’s initial post did. [...]

]]> By: Sue http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-7586 Sue Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:33:02 +0000 http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/#comment-7586 <p>David - thanks for taking the time to write this blog post. I have been struggling for awhile now on whether I would post a comment directly to K's blog post on marriage. Even as she and Nerdmeyr state a few times that their comments are not directed at any one person or event, it's hard to not feel like our "save the date" email that was sent a couple of days prior to their blog posting wasn't at least part of the inspiration for their comments. In the end, I have decided against saying anything directly. I feel like their comments were less inviting for discussion and much more an open/closed argument and I do not feel like defending or apologizing for my decision to get married. I will say that this decision was not made without a lot of careful thinking and awareness of what this decision means socially, legally and politically to me and my chosen family.</p> <p>I certainly agree that the institution of marriage is far from perfect and I absolutely see the inequity in the laws of the country. And mostly, I think people do not realize what it means to blindly contribute to this institution. It is a highly complex issue and one that doesn't have easy solutions to it.</p> <p>For now, besides continuing to work for a more just and equal society, I will continue to create my chosen family based on a lot of ideals that have been true for me for many years. And hopefully in doing so, I will be raising a new human that will be innovative in designing unique and wonderful kinships for himself.</p> David – thanks for taking the time to write this blog post. I have been struggling for awhile now on whether I would post a comment directly to K’s blog post on marriage. Even as she and Nerdmeyr state a few times that their comments are not directed at any one person or event, it’s hard to not feel like our “save the date” email that was sent a couple of days prior to their blog posting wasn’t at least part of the inspiration for their comments. In the end, I have decided against saying anything directly. I feel like their comments were less inviting for discussion and much more an open/closed argument and I do not feel like defending or apologizing for my decision to get married. I will say that this decision was not made without a lot of careful thinking and awareness of what this decision means socially, legally and politically to me and my chosen family.

I certainly agree that the institution of marriage is far from perfect and I absolutely see the inequity in the laws of the country. And mostly, I think people do not realize what it means to blindly contribute to this institution. It is a highly complex issue and one that doesn’t have easy solutions to it.

For now, besides continuing to work for a more just and equal society, I will continue to create my chosen family based on a lot of ideals that have been true for me for many years. And hopefully in doing so, I will be raising a new human that will be innovative in designing unique and wonderful kinships for himself.

]]> By: Dan http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/comment-page-1/#comment-7585 Dan Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:13:49 +0000 http://davidernst.net/blog/2007/07/07/joining-in-on-the-kinship-conversation/#comment-7585 <p>Grin.</p> <p>Is that what I said? Actually I remember saying that. There are weddings and there is marriage. The two do not need to be as related as one might think. A wedding could be just a ceremony celebrating whatever kinship one is creating. It is a still point in an evolving relationship--a snapshot. For me it was a time to bring community together to celebrate this relationship that is qualitatively different from others that I have been in. It was also a recognition that I was really committing to the relationship in a way that I had not in previous relationships.</p> <p>Tagore wrote of the river and its banks. If a river has no banks, it will overflow and spread itself out. It will go nowhere, and its goal will not be met while it causes destruction all around it. However, if the river has banks, then its energy is channeled into purpose and direction. In effect it can stop putting effort into the million directions it could go and instead focus on the path it is going. Freedom, then, is being able to choose your own banks and to modify them as needed. This allows one to focus on the important while by-passing the distractions.</p> <p>Perhaps marriage is one form of river bank. I know that I want to do things like raise children, work through difficulties in a relationship (something that I was not known for in previous relationships), and other things relating to partnering with one person over time. Marriage serves as a chosen formalization of this course for me.</p> Grin.

Is that what I said? Actually I remember saying that. There are weddings and there is marriage. The two do not need to be as related as one might think. A wedding could be just a ceremony celebrating whatever kinship one is creating. It is a still point in an evolving relationship–a snapshot. For me it was a time to bring community together to celebrate this relationship that is qualitatively different from others that I have been in. It was also a recognition that I was really committing to the relationship in a way that I had not in previous relationships.

Tagore wrote of the river and its banks. If a river has no banks, it will overflow and spread itself out. It will go nowhere, and its goal will not be met while it causes destruction all around it. However, if the river has banks, then its energy is channeled into purpose and direction. In effect it can stop putting effort into the million directions it could go and instead focus on the path it is going. Freedom, then, is being able to choose your own banks and to modify them as needed. This allows one to focus on the important while by-passing the distractions.

Perhaps marriage is one form of river bank. I know that I want to do things like raise children, work through difficulties in a relationship (something that I was not known for in previous relationships), and other things relating to partnering with one person over time. Marriage serves as a chosen formalization of this course for me.

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