Sun 25 Feb 2007
A few more atheism thoughts (inspired by Dan)
Posted by David under philosophizing
[8] Comments
I don’t think it’s too much to say that I was thrilled by how many comments I got on my post last month about atheism. I replied to some of your comments in the comments section, so if you haven’t done so, some of you might want to check that out. But, after I’d done that, Dan submitted his comments.
Dan’s comments got me thinking, as they often do. I decided that rather than post another comment back there (which likely few people would see) I’d post my response here (giving me more justification for being verbose).
Dan said:
First, this is great if there weren’t a political aspect to the religious/atheist conflict. As long as political decisions are being based on the moral value set defined by a specific interpretation of religion, the debate is not just philosophical or even one of trying to convert. It affects people’s lives legally.
Right, this is an interesting observation. Most atheists seem to spend most of their advocacy energy on shoring up the separation of church and state. I’m all for that. I wouldn’t want to live in the jurisdiction of a government that promoted atheism any more than I’d want one to live in one that promoted any other religion. It’s at the level of civil society that I am having the quandry.
On another front, why is there need to convert people to atheism? If people want to believe whatever they want, fine. If a set of dogma becomes too unbelievable or the message of the existence of a god fails to resonate, then a person may develop his or her own atheist understanding of the world. In the mean time, what good would it do to confront people who have other beliefs? I think it would only act to strengthen those beliefs in opposition.
Right, I actually don’t have that much interest in converting people. If at some point in the future the percentage of people who were atheists was the same but the cultural acceptance of atheism had grown and the separation of church and state was strong, I’d be perfectly pleased.
Here’s a story for comparison: several years ago I was invited to the home of a woman who was very proud of her Jewish heritage. She wore in some manner (I believe it was a necklace, but I cannot really recall) a Star of David, and somehow the symbol came up in conversation, and she proclaimed with a sense of proud defiance that she wore it as a statement to everyone that “We are here”. Ok, I can’t swear that that was the quote, but whatever she said had the sense of trying to keep people from ignoring the fact that Judaism exists.
While I definitely support her freedom of religion and association, I also remember being taken aback by her comment, since I doubt she hardly ever meets anyone who doesn’t know that Judaism exists. But, on the other hand, the reason that people DO know that Judaism exists is because of people like her proudly proclaim their Judaism. Figures I’m seeing on the Adherents.com site, which are living on wikipedia (with far less contraversy than one might expect) suggest that there are ten times as many Atheists in the world as there are Jews. And that’s without including agnostics and “non-religious” people in the mix.
So, thinking about this, I feel like part of what I’m looking for is a simple way to say “I’m proud of my atheism” in a way that makes some people say “I love living in a diverse nation that prides itself on freedom of religion” and makes no one think anything worse than “well, there’s another poor soul that’s going to hell”. What I’m suggesting about the confrontational sound of the term “atheism”, though, is that some people would read such a message as “who are you to tell me that my religion is wrong?”
And, I don’t think I’m alone in this. Check out this section of the adherents.com page:
In most countries only a tiny number of people (zero to a fraction of 1 percent) will answer “atheism” or “atheist” when asked an open-ended question about what their religious preference. A slightly larger number of people will answer “yes” if asked pointedly if they are an atheist. A slightly larger number than that will answer “no” when asked if they believe in any type of God, deities, or Higher Power. A slightly larger number answer “no” when asked simply if they “believe in God” (omitting wording indicating more nebulous, less anthropomorphic conceptions of divinity). Finally, a larger number of people answer “none” or “non-religious” when asked asked an open-ended queston about what their religious preference is. Although figures vary for each country, average numbers indicate that roughly half of the people who self-identify as “nonreligious” also answer “yes” when asked if they believe in God or a Higher Power.
Hopefully when the copy of The Cambridge Companion to Atheism that I just ordered arrives, I’ll find out more about these “slightly larger numbers”. But, the story certainly suggests that there are a lot of people who actively disbelieve in God who don’t want to associate with the term “atheist”. I’m more interested in getting those people to rally behind a term than I am interested in convincing Believers that they are wrong. Why can’t we be atheist and proud, happy, and peaceful? I do suspect some of it is because people hear in the term “atheist” something contrary.
And, it’s not just the term. Most public displays of atheism that I see (T-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.) focus more on mocking religion than they do on celebrating religious beliefs. Amidst all of the writing of the “new Atheists”, the most exciting publication I’ve seen with a clearly atheistic slant recently was this Pop-Up book that Beth showed me. It doesn’t talk at all about God existing or not, it just talks about the current scientific perspective on how life and the universe came about. It’s awesome. Parents, check it out.
Thinking as I type, I’m reminded of how much of this debate focuses on evolution right now. I think it would benefit atheism for science to be more upfront about its levels of confidence about things. The reason evolution should be taught to children is because the evidence for it is overwhelming and it has near-universal acceptance by all people who devote their lives to the study of biology. However, when we talk about evolution in these terms, we’re talking really about the ideas of heredity, mutation, and selection. Everything from animal breeding to children looking like their parents to genetically modified foods presents so much evidence that heredity and selection work as evoltionary theory describe that I can’t even understand how anyone could disbelieve it now. That being said, that mutation is purely random would be difficult to prove. And the further into the past one goes, the iffier the ground is that evolution stands upon. To me it is perfectly reasonable to think that a God could have introduced selective forces that would have encouraged The Decent of Man [sic]. It’s even reasonable to me to consider that a God took some early humanoid and made it the first animal to have a soul (I’ve met Mormons who believe just this). To go much further back, the standard evolutionary explanation of the beginning of life (y’know, promordial soup ‘n’at) strikes me as basically an educated guess, and if anyone can think of a falsifiable experiment that would lend evidence one way or another to that theory, I’d like to hear it. If nothing else, consider the idea that a God could have created conditions where a primordial soup would occur and maybe even added a magic spark to the mix to make life happen. I suspect that this idea is consistent with the entire theory of evolution. It might also be consistent with the theory of intelligent design.
My point is that atheism is an active belief system. It’s more than just not believing in other belief systems. It’s a challenging proposition, and one will never grow to understand it without deep study and reflection. However, through understanding it, many of us find it a way to what many believers-in-God call “spiritual peace.” It offers answers to many of life’s most perplexing and disturbing problems. And it provides a foundation for strong moral and ethical systems. All of these are things that people seek from religion. But it isn’t widely regarded as a religion in this sense. I’m much more motivated to promote this understanding of it than I am in converting people to it. But I’m still seeking ways to do that.
David, you are a deep thinker. Mom
“I doubt she hardly ever meets anyone who doesn’t know that Judaism exists…”
I would wonder if she was referring to Judaism as a religion or as a populace. Judaism is funny that way. Even in polite company Jews are frequently generalized as somehow simultaneously monolithic and abstract.
As for the rest, even though I agree with you (in keeping with the ‘near-universal acceptance’ thing) on matters evolution (Although, I don’t know if I could deny that at least some schools of thought in science aren’t dogmatic—by design they’re not suppose to be), point of view is a terribly subjective creature and appealing to any rationale is doomed. The other person simply will not care. It’d be better to engage them, but with respect and the assumption that their position will not change. Some degree of secular kiruv is necessary to garner enough influence to keep the balance of power.
“It’s even reasonable to me to consider that a God took some early humanoid and made it the first animal to have a soul…”
This is reversed in Modern Orthodox theories. Vayaasho Adonay Elokim l’adam uleishto katnot or vayalbishem. God took spiritual beings and put animal skin on them. I don’t know if this could be reconciled the same way.
Hey, David.
I just caught up to your blog and saw a reflection! How strange and pleasing at the same time. Does atheism necessitate a belief in evolution? On a more general level, does atheism align with scientific belief. I see the two as separate belief structures that easily, but not necessarily, overlap.
Another good post Dave. Just a quick note on the your Jewish commentary. Bottom line is that your comment “I doubt she hardly ever meets anyone who doesn’t know that Judaism exists…” may be accurate, but it misses a key point.
There are a surprising number of people who are unaware of ever having met a Jew. They likely know that Judaism exists, just as they are aware that there is a country called Iceland, but they’ve never been and don’t know any Icelanders. Frankly, they know nothing about it, which makes them prone to stereotypes and folklore.
Of course, there aren’t any negative perceptions about Icelanders; the same cannot be said of Jews. I’ve had a few conversations with folks (almost all from the South) who’ve told me “I’ve never met a Jewish person before.” More ominous was the extended discussion with the Romanian woman who asked “Is it true that Jews control all the banks?” She grew up in a world where the anti-semitism, with all its negative stereotypes about Judiasm, are stronger than I ever imagined. With the near-total destruction of eastern European jewry in WWII, this bigotry has been almost entirely unchecked. We are only a few generations removed from the Holocaust, and there’s reason to reinforce the message: “Never Forget.”
None of this may have been operational in your friend. Jews are as prone to self-promotion as any self-identified group. Some christians wear crosses, some jews wear stars of david, some steeler fans wear ben rothlisberger jerseys. Where I come from (a jewish neighborhood in pittsburgh), these are all roughly equivalent.
Replying to Josh’s comments:
Yeah, so, this is a good demonstration, I think, of why I was reminded
of that story. Although I did have a reaction to her comment, I don’t
think it’s a bad thing at all. In fact, I’m really saying that I
respect the degree to which Jews have made themselves visible and kind
of envy it. If those stats are correct and there are 10x as many
atheists in the world as Jews, why is there so much more awareness of
Judiasm in the general population than of atheism? Or really, my core
issue can be put quite well in the terms of your last paragraph:
“Some christians wear crosses, some jews wear stars of david, some
steeler fans wear ben rothlisberger jerseys.”
What do atheists do? Not much. And the only things I can think of
(Darwin fish, for instance) are mocking of (other?) religions. I’m
seeking a bit of positive atheist iconography that will enable people
like me to express my pride in my religious beliefs and increase the
visibility of atheism without any attempt to belittle anyone else’s
religious beliefs.
When I wrote the first blog entry, I’m not even sure I had the
question that well defined. Writing and reacting to the comments has
helped me see it more clearly. Thank you for being part of the
process!
How about “Stuff Just Happens” with an appropriate image?
There are a couple of things being conflated in the discussion of atheism, I think. The main thing that gets confused is “the belief in God/Higher Power/Universal Creator” and “Religion”. You can believe in a Universal Creator and not be religious. So, it’s perfectly reasonable for someone to say that they don’t have a particular religion, but they believe in a higher power.
Similarly, I tend to bracket my discussions of religion with the idea that I am only talking about what happens inside the universe. I make no claims or guarantees about anything that happens beyond the boundaries of the universe, before it began or after it ends. It’s extremely difficult for me to imagine that the universe isn’t “in” something and that it spontaneously began to exist with nothing kicking it off. But by its very nature, science can only tell us what’s happening inside the universe. We might be able to surmise what’s going on outside the universe based on what we see, but it will always be a guess.
This leads to two things. First, any self-proclaimed atheist who goes around saying, “Beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is no God,” is a liar, and is just as much of a fundamentalist as any hard-core fundy Christian or Muslim. To claim categorically that there never was and never will be a Universal Creator is a leap of faith that’s just as great as any traditional religion. At this point, we just don’t know.
Second, people who annoy me tend to leap on my qualification and shout, “Ah HA! So you DO believe in God!” Or, “So you believe God could exist!”. Yeah, I’m open to the idea that something created the universe. But that’s it. The key difference for me is, there is no God in the universe. Inside these galaxies, stars, moons, atoms, quarks, there is no god. Maybe God built it and set it in motion. Maybe it just spontaneously came into being. Maybe it’s all just crystallized energy that we just think we perceive.
But none of that leads to miracles, saints, sin, Jesus as a deity or the son of God, burning bushes, a chosen people, prophets, the virgin Mary, the Bible as the inerrant word of God, caliphs, heaven, hell, the Garden of Eden, souls, holy water, transubstantiation, the Holy Spirit, angels, demons, Satan, ghosts, witchcraft, voodoo, reincarnation, the Buddha, psychic abilities, ESP, divination, astrology, etc.etc.etc.
Religion is all about [the g|G]od’s relationship with man, or man’s relationship with the supernatural. I mean, the Judeo-Christian creation myth in Genesis is a few pages long. After that, everything in those religions is focused on God’s relationship with man. All the schisms are focused on it. Most of the literature is focused on it. The discussion is focused on it. The morality is focused on it (and man’s relationship with man).
Anyway, my two cents.
The funniest thing I’ve ever heard being Jewish in the South (I don’t really consider being asked if I have horns funny) was the extremely fey boy waiter in Hattiesburg, Mississippi who told me (a) He had been to a Jewish wedding and they had a canopy and everything (b) Jews aren’t supposed to celebrate Christmas, but isn’t it really just a universal holiday? and (c) Barbara Streisand is Jewish and he just loves her. LOVES HER.
This was all one sentence. I just laughed and smiled at him. I mean, a real discussion about that sentence would have required a lot more time and in the meantime, I did need my credit card back.